0 Replies to “"When Faith Goes, All Good Things Go."”

      1. Objective facts that support claims. For example, I would consider evidence of a murder to be a dead body, the means of death of the person, and perhaps the statements of people concerning the person, who would want to kill. I would consider evidence of a tornado to be the patterns of debris, the measurement of wind speed and direction.

        What qualifies, in your mind, as evidence?

        1. We Know because God knows, because of revelation (special and general). The universe unfolds to humans as knowable, because it is created. (I don’t expect you to accept this).

          But your answer/question raises another question in my mind, “What is an ‘objective fact,’ and how do you identify one?” I.e., “How do you know you know (anything)?”

          1. Then why do Christians disagree on what this god has said and means? this would seem to indicate that you don’t know anything at all since you cannot agree, much less show that a god exists at all..

            A lot of your claims have nothing to support them, e.g. evidence. They are vague handwaving, used by other religions as well as your own. You are correct, I have no reason to accept a baseless claims that we know things because they are created. How does one follow from the other, if it is true? And how does this support the existence of only your god and no others?

            If you question how anyone knows anything, your claims that you know anything are unsupportable. I would say that an objective fact is one that humans agree upon. For instance, a white-hot bar of steel held in a bare human hand will cause much destruction. Would you agree with that estimation?

          2. Given your world view, there can be no certainty of evidence. In a materialist worldview, your brain is simply an accident of nature, as is mine. What I accept as evidence and what you accept as evidence is determined by nature. Your anxiety about theism is also an accident of nature, and there is no reason or explanation, beyond this accident, to explain how you feel. Attempting to privilege your brain as the arbitrator of truth and rationality is, in your worldview, absurd. Your fellow atheists should have told you that.

            The material world is very small, actually. The universe is just stuff, lots of it, arranged randomly.

            I can give you no evidence for theism, because you cannot accept it, nor believe it. You are locked into your materialism, and only the grace of God can break you out of it. If that should happen, you will be able to truly think. Starting with materialism, you will never think yourself free of it.

          3. Again, what is evidence, in your mind? It seems you are afraid to commit to this. Are you?

            Given my world view, there is plenty of certainty of evidence. My brain may be an “accident of nature” but that doesn’t preclude objective facts being objective facts. Again, you claim you know things with this untrustworthy brain. Why should I trust your claims if this brain is so untrustworthy? How can I know your version of Christianity is true if it comes from your brain and you can’t show it comes from anything else?

            I have no anxiety about theism. I know that there is no evidence to support Christianity’s claims nor any other religions. I do know that there is plenty of evidence that shows your claims are false. Again, evidence for your god’s resurrection? The magic flood? a week long creation? the exodus?

            Why not privilege my brain as arbiter of the truth? It gives me pretty good information, that white-hot bars of iron should not be touched. You seem to wish to give that arbitor position to your brain too, when you claim that your god is real. There is no evidence for your god, or any other. If brains are so untrustworthy, your claims are as untrustworthy as mine, and you have less evidence than I do for what has happened in the world. I can show that no magical world covering flood. You can’t show that one occurred. I can show that the Roman legions in the eastern Mediterranean noticed nothing strange in any of time times that Christians claim that their god died and was resurrected. Again, TWD, Christians don’t agree on what their god has said, what their god means, or when Jesus Christ died and what happened after that supposed event. Your brain invented this version, and the brains of other Christian invented other “interpretations”. Who has the right one? Can we do an altar test like in Elijah to see which version is correct?

            I do enjoy when someone like you claims that my “fellow atheists” should have told me something. How do you know that they should have said such a thing? It’s curious on how a Christian like you will presume to speak for atheists. there is nothing in my worldview that makes trusting my brain, for the most part, absurd. But since you claim to know my worldview, please tell it to me. Surely you know it, right? You aren’t lying, right? Since I am indeed the owner of my worldview, I can confirm or deny your words and we can see just how accurate and truthful you are.

            The material world is all we have, unless you can show evidence otherwise. which version of heaven is correct, TWD? Of course you have yet to say what you think evidence is. I am suspecting that you refuse to answer the same question you asked me because actually pinning yourself down is rather dangerous for you and your claims.

            The universe is certainly not arranged randomly, there is much order in the universe. I do enjoy seeing you claim that it is somehow random. My body, and yours, is evidence that matter is not random. Stars are evidence that matter is not random. Indeed, it takes a certain amount of ignorance about basic physics to make such an ignorant claim.

            Yep, I know you can give no evidence for your god, just like no Muslim can give me evidence, no Shintoist, no Jew, no Wiccan, no Zoroastrian, no Hindu, no Jain, no theist at all can. It does not depend on me at all, since I can believe evidence if it is given. You have no evidence, and you try to blame everyone who disbelieves you, just like any theist that is not a Christian makes the same excuses for why a Christian doesn’t believe their baseless claims.

            Yep, if only for the ‘grace of God’. If we read the bible, your god has picked some people to believe in it and some to not. This is not just or fair, it is the actions of a god just like Zeus or Tezcatlipoca. And we know that those gods don’t exist, right? But not so strangely, other Christians don’t agree with you in your claims that its only by the grace of your god that people can come to believe in this god. Which version of Christianity should I believe, TWD? Should I believe in predestination like you seem to claim (and that I was brought up in as a Christian)? Should I believe in the version that claims free will and that anyone must accept JC as savior freely and not with a god’s random choice?

            Again, TWD, your excuses for your god and for your religion, for not having any evidence for your claims at all, are just like every other religions. For all of the claims of evidence you have, they evaporate just like the claims of any charlatan. No wonder that your supposed messiah couldn’t do magic in his home town. He couldn’t supply any evidence either just like any two-bit magician. You are just like any supposed “psychic” who makes the excuse “I can’t do my magic with any unbelievers around.” For a supposedly omnipotent god, this god of yours sure is impotent if anyone dares disbelieves the nonsense spread by people like you.

            I can truly think alreadym thank you very much, and my conclusion is that your claims are false and you have no more evidence than any other theist. Funny how I disbelieve you just like you disbelieve anyone who disagrees with you.

          4. And again, all you have is the collection of grey matter that has randomly assembled itself to assert the above. You have no standard of authority to have any knowledge, or that your reason is valid. IN such a system, you cannot have evidence because it cannot be evaluated.

            You can only start with yourself, because you have no other starting point, but you have no reason to trust your reasoning. That is irrational.

            If Christian theism is true, you are behaving irrationally in your thinking. If Christian theism is untrue, there is no certain knowledge of anything at all.

            I can offer evidences for the historicity of Biblical events, but you must dismiss these out of hand, because it does not fit your materialistic paradigm (which is why i always ask, “what would it take to convince you, what evidence would you need”). So I am reluctant to discuss evidences when your worldview cannot accept them. That is your presupposition,

            I can present evidences as counter-arguments all day long, but in the end they cannot convince you, but only silence your arguments.

            Man cannot think rationally unless he thinks as submitted to the God of the Bible. As long as man pretends to be autonomous in his thinking, he cannot think truthfully.

            God calls us to repent and repudiate this pretended autonomy.

          5. It’s always amusing to see you decry this “grey matter” when that’s the exact stuff that supposedly you use to tell you your god is real. Now, if I am to believe you, TWD, your claims are just as likely to be false as mine. You have no evidence that your claims are outside such a system. You have yet to show any standard of authority to validate your claims, TWD. Indeed, since I know that Christians do not agree on what their supposed authority says or means, there is no reason to believe that any theist has any magical authority guiding them.

            I have plenty of reason to trust my reasoning. My reasoning allows me to interact pleasantly with reality and consistently get the results I want. TWD, unless you can show something irrational, just saying it repeatedly is nothing more than a child insisting their lie is true when the mother can see that the vase was indeed broken by the child.

            Since you have yet to provide any evidence that your version of Christianity is true, that any version of Christianity is true, or that any religion is true, I am not behaving irrationally at all. It’s hilarious that you try to claim that if your version of Christianity isn’t true somehow everything else isn’t true. My, my, please do show how that works, TWD. A Muslim can make the same silly claim “If Islamic theism is untrue, there is no certain knowledge of anything at all.” “If Hindu theism is untrue, there is no certain knowledge of anything at all.” No reason to believe you, no reason to believe them.

            Unsurprisingly, you claim you can offer evidence for the history of Biblical events, but rather than just offer them, you try to avoid doing so by making false claims about me. You claim that you have material evidence, but surprise! You try to make that silly “materialistic paradigm” accusation again. For all of your claims to be able to present evidence as counter-arguments “all day long”, you have yet to present *one*. Evidence can convince me. Why so afraid of presenting it if it is what you claim? Where is this wonderful evidence that can supposed “silence” my arguments and counter-evidence, TWD? Again, you accuse me of presupposition as an excuse for not presenting your supposed evidence. My worldview says follow the evidence where it goes. To accuse me of anything else is just another lie on your part, made solely so you don’t have to present any of this wonderful evidence you claim to have.

            It’s interesting to see you try your very best to redefine what rational means. No, it doesn’t mean ignore anything that doesn’t agree with the belief in a god. The submission to a god is just blind faith. Plenty of other religions claim one should submit to their god too. You don’t agree with them and I don’t agree with any of you. Humans can think truthfully, you just don’t like it when they don’t agree with you.

            You have yet to answer your own question TWD, what do you consider evidence? Why is this, TWD? It’s also great to watch you insist that everyone repudiate this “pretended autonomy” but you have no problem with autonomy when you pick and choose what to ignore from your bible.

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